Friday, December 21, 2012

The big WH myth

Wormholes are considered the place where the money is. While trading is clearly bigger money, no one doubts that WHs have the highest primary income. I mean grindable one that "little guys" can get. A trader or a hauler alone earns nothing. He flips and moves items other people create. You can't trade with tritanium without someone mining it. The miners make about 20M/hour/account. You can do better by running missions or rat, about 50-100M/hour. This is the primary income in known space.

In a WH by capital escalating sleepers you can do 2-300M/hour. Therefore WH people are the richest people in the galaxy. The average highsec resident is around 20-30M/hour, 1/10 of the WH income. No wonder they can afford to throw pimped capitals into battles regularly, things that the average nullsec-dweller might save for months. Or so it is believed.

Let's check on the numbers shall we! We have these wonderful killboard that inform us about ships destroyed. Even better it has statistics. For example we can look up on Delve region and see that 162862 ships were destroyed with 9822175221274 (9.8T) ISK value at the moment I'm writing this. I don't know what time period it refers to, neither I care, since I only want to compare regions. You probably did not know but wormhole systems are in regions too. So you can see that in W-space region 30 10063 kills happened with 2.9T value. What is W-space region 30? Dotlan helps telling us that this region has 113 systems, all class 6. This is the only region with class 6 systems by the way. So off I went and checked on every single nullsec and WH region and collected the data for kills, values, WH class and system count, then calculated the sums for the various types:

"Region","Class","Kills ","ISK (b)","Systems"; 1,1,3656,293,133; 2,1,11456,828,153; 3,1,3916,317,62; 4,2,15669,1660,104; 5,2,15973,1663,102; 6,2,8196,776,141; 7,2,2124,270,50; 8,2,13362,1287,128; 9,3,3278,510,56; 10,3,3464,468,51; 11,3,5171,762,86; 12,3,13989,1769,105; 13,3,2561,383,43; 14,3,4693,651,96; 15,3,3991,549,58; 16,4,2936,401,60; 17,4,356,84,25; 18,4,1648,220,46; 19,4,2410,412,94; 20,4,1329,218,50; 21,4,5890,866,115; 22,4,1313,258,87; 23,4,1331,168,28; 24,5,7792,1577,91; 25,5,6432,1522,100; 26,5,2560,697,68; 27,5,8670,1394,71; 28,5,7417,1633,92; 29,5,5661,979,90; 30,6,10026,2884,113; "Branch","Null",36485,3465,94; "Cache","Null",7277,1004,44; "Catch","Null",126193,9230,108; "Cloud ring","Null",24582,1857,40; "Cobalt edge","Null",36340,3333,69; "Curse","Null",108477,6629,50; "Deklein","Null",33351,3066,68; "Delve","Null",162771,9814,97; "Detorid","Null",18508,1952,96; "Esoteria","Null",6941,1064,85; "Etherium Reach","Null",59622,5179,100; "Fade","Null",14281,1168,27; "Feythabolis","Null",10327,1516,89; "Fountain","Null",75273,5306,115; "Geminate","Null",81594,8006,84; "Great Wildlands","Null",59622,4095,101; "Immensea","Null",15386,1817,84; "Impass","Null",5608,758,51; "Insmother","Null",26779,3101,110; "Malpais","Null",8274,1184,102; "Oasa","Null",9581,1131,85; "Omist","Null",8980,992,43; "Outer Passage","Null",3660,568,88; "Outer Ring","Null",14932,1095,59; "Paragon Soul","Null",5041,466,39; "Period Basis","Null",24439,1988,40; "Perrigen Falls","Null",12034,1567,104; "Providence","Null",80990,6498,84; "Pure Blind","Null",63706,4409,85; "Querious","Null",59592,4809,95; "Scalding Pass","Null",29496,3353,81; "Stain","Null",51394,3800,132; "Syndicate","Null",148444,9316,106; "Tenal","Null",15134,1515,68; "Tenerifis","Null",14767,1579,81; "The Kalevala Expanse","Null",23906,2610,69; "The Spire","Null",3689,516,72; "Tribute","Null",100491,7354,54; "Vale of the Silent","Null",39772,3355,118; "Venal","Null",76225,6461,95; "Wicked Creek","Null",18051,2178,82;


Now this chart is full of surprises! The first myth is that "people live in C5-6 since why would anyone live in smaller". Yet 58% of the WH kill value is in C1-4. You might say that it's C6-dwellers roaming, but it doesn't change anything. If they are in C4, they are in C4. Where you live is defined by where you are and not where you log off. It's the same as the guy who spends 90% of his time in highsec and calls himself "lowsec pirate". C1-4 holes are anything but irrelevant. Also, you are least likely to die in C4s (where C5+ people might roam) while most likely to die in C2 where they probably won't. We have to face that there is a large unsung low-WH community, larger than the famous and visible 8B-shield-Moros-heroes.

Now let's look for more data shall we! Sugar found this long ago (if you know more recent, please send me the link):
This chart says that the WH people have 5.86/5.51 = 1.06 more kills than an average EVE player. In null the same number is 52.37/20.07 = 2.61. Their ratio is 2.61/1.06 = 2.46, meaning the average null member has 2.46x more kills. Since the average value of a kill in null is 81M while 144M in WH, 2.46*81/144 = 1.38: an average null dweller spends 38% more ISK on PvP than an average WH dweller. So much for the "WH-ers throw insane ISK on PvP because they can afford it".

To extract further data, we must do some magic with numbers. You can see that the average kill value is indeed higher in WH than in nullsec. The reason is simple: the more ships you lose, the cheaper they become since you have to replace them from the same income (1x1B = 10x100M = 100x10M). However since PvP-ers earn money to PvP, this isn't linear. I mean if he is out of money, he stops doing PvP and go do PvE. It reminded me of temperature vs chemical reaction speed: the higher the temperature is (average ISK of the players) the faster the reaction is (the PvP). Now the connection of v-T is exponential. So I plotted the data of every region: kill value vs ln(kill number):
Now look at that! The line fits to the trend of nullsec regions. The regions with more kills have lower kill value (probably lot of frig and T1 cruiser roams) while the regions with less kills have higher. The WH regions are also plotted and you can see that the C1 and C2 ones are way below the line. A C1 dweller would spend about half as much on PvP as an average nullsec member if other conditions (mostly PvP frequency) would be equal. C3 and C4 are perfectly on the line, showing that they are in the same boots as the nullseccers. The C5 is 150% above the line the C6 is 220%. So even the elite of WH, the C6 dwellers are about 2x more rich than the big average of null. The only alternative explanation is that the WH dwellers are PvP-avoiding carebears who hoard their ISK and don't spend it on PvP.

Actually this result is only surprising to people who believed the propaganda instead of thinking for themselves. Wormholes were introduced with Apocrypha expansion in March 2009, almost 3 years ago. More than enough time to equalize the incomes. Still the myth of the wealth in WHs remained because of two reasons: at first the sleeper grind ISK/hour is stellar compared to the nullsec ratting. However the nullsec ratter can rat in all his PvE time. He has a station, he has local channel, he can set up courier contracts for his loot and to get his ship/ammo. The WH dweller can't just hit sleepers all day, he must mind his tower, roll holes and scan to be safe and go lot of jumps with a covops hauler to get his loot to Jita and get replacements. The WH life needs lot of PvE time which is not earning ISK. The second reason of the myth is that the large, front-page battles of null are fought by battlecruiser blobs, putting the "Drakes of poverty" to display while the titans are hiding from the eyes of the public. On the other hand the mass restrictions demand WH-ers to put their most expensive ships on the line in an eviction attempt, so the media will talk about their shinies while their cheap ships live and die in silence.

So my "ISK guide to veterans" stays unchallenged. If you want ISK, you should be in highsec.


PS: I have an idea of one more mythbusting post but can't get the data for it. I got the above data by clicking on the links and copy-pasting. That can be done for 60 regions. Not for 7500 systems. To get a more accurate version of the above analysis and to defeat the last myth, I need system kill data like this somehow extracted from the API of the killboard: "Sujarento, 0.3, The Citadel, 5822, 453601611603" for every system (highsec, lowsec, nullsec, WH). I guess the kill numbers are for the last month, if previous months could be extracted too, that would greatly increase the reliability of the results. If you are an API wizard and want the last myth of EVE economy to fall, please create this database and send it in mail or upload it somewhere and send the link.

PS2: of course the optimal would be an insane sized database with all the individual kills giving fields "Systemname, secstatus/WH class, lossvalue". That would allow mapping the wealth of various type of players perfectly, but doubt that that can be created at all.

32 comments:

Alkarasu said...

You promised to get me surprised, but failed to do so. It is pretty reasonable, that C2-4 get more kills, then C5-6. As you know, populated C5-6 are mostly mighty strongholds, with POSes on every moon and dozens of people roaming around, some - actively seeking intruders 23.5/7. Save for eviction attempts, very little PVP is going on there - as any attack on the system owners with a small gang is nearly equal to pointless suicide anyway (and you need a lot of time and planning to get bigger one in). C3-4 (most PVP region of WH space on your charts), on the other hand, is the place with little to none static population (so no local defence force is present), while being the only road to hisec, avaliable to WH-dwellers. Therefore, despite that every WH-dweller tries to get through that space as fast, as he can, it is the most likely place to meet other people and trade some blows with them.

Gevlon said...

At first there is more PvP in C5-6 than 3-4 both in terms in kills and ISK. The most PvP-ish zone is C2.

However the point is that WH as a whole is much less PvP-ish than null, even in terms of kill sizes. The average WH dweller spends less ISK on PvP than a null dweller which is directly against the "we are damn rich and this is the most fierce PvP zone" mantra.

Alkarasu said...

@Gevlon
"The most PvP-ish zone is C2."

Those are not WH-dwellers at all, that's mostly hisec and lowsec gangs. C2 is the most accessible class from there, while mostly useless for anything from WH-side.

"However the point is that WH as a whole is much less PvP-ish than null, even in terms of kill sizes."

That's pretty natural, exactly due to heavyly fortified nature of WH warfare. Scouts are pretty cheap, and also most killed ships out there, while big guns fight rarely due to pure logistical nightmare to get them to battle. Even eviction don't mean that most of the defenders ships are dead - I've managed to get my Archon out of the system we was evicted from a month after the eviction took place, and 2 more carriers and a dred with it (that was our entire cap fleet before the attack, so we did not put it into the fight we had no hope to win).

"which is directly against the "we are damn rich and this is the most fierce PvP zone" mantra."

No, it isn't. WH-dwellers tend to be rich, tend to have pretty expensive ships, and WH-space IS the most fierce PVP zone of all due to it's rules. The thing is, it is so fierce, that people, who live there for prolonged periods of time, tend to be extremely, paranoidally catious. Expensive stuff sits under the POS shields all the time it's owners are not sure, that the system is clean of guests, most stuff that gets to fly around more freely, is cloaked, and it's pilots check everything around them with D-scan twice a minute just out of habit. So it's pretty natural, that this amount of caution leads to less fights, then in less dangerous and, therefore, more careless null, with cheaper ships tending to be in possession of less experienced ones, who hadn't got they paranoia level high enough yet. Too fierce can actually be TOO fierce.

Greig Hul said...
This comment has been removed by the author.
Gevlon said...

@Greig: where are your numbers? Every number says that average WH PvP ISK value is low and the number of kills is low too. You merely reiterate the standard WH propaganda without basis.

dobablo said...

Shock news - Efficient EvE economy means most PvE activities have broadly similar average ISK/h with above average ISK/h only existing when that activity has significant barriers to entry (like C6s).

Setsune Rin said...

this post is so full of inaccuracy and ignorance about w-space that you draw some completely wrong conclusions

1. you failed to consider the amount of systems for each class
http://wiki.eveonline.com/en/wiki/List_of_All_W-Space_Systems
extract from c1 to c6: 348; 525; 495; 505; 512; 113

and their occupancy rate

meaning that your c5/c6 numbers are WAY off

i've lived in w-space for well over a year now
in that time i've found very few empty low-class wormholes
especially with a connection to low/highsec

while more then half of the C5 holes we roll into are either unoccupied or have a <20 man bear corp in them (AKA the money gets moved off the scope of your analysis)

C1-C4 wormholes are sought after by all W-space residents for their higher likelyhood of K-space exits. and much more likely to have camps on them and are most often the grounds for the subcap pvp because of the higher number or players residing there at any given point in time.

Capital and T3 battles are few and far between.

on top of that, most of my money gets blown up hunting null-bears.
and i know for a fact that that is the case for almost all high-class wormholes.

which in my judgement is by far the primary factor to screw up your entire post.

http://zkillboard.com/corporation/98040755/
http://zkillboard.com/alliance/99001968/
http://zkillboard.com/alliance/99000767/

to give a few examples

sure we get the occasional gank of site runners, or run into an enemy gang and slugfest it out

but 90% of our activity is in empire space
wormholes are just an excellent way to make isk and get easy access to fights all around the galaxy

and thats why i live there

Anonymous said...

the api you want is described here:

https://forums.eveonline.com/default.aspx?g=posts&t=18842


you can basically tell it what parameters you want and it will return them as a json dataset (which should be importable into a variety of analysis tools...

Gevlon said...

@Dobablo: that's indeed shock news for people, considering that "what I farmed is not free" shocks them too.

@Setsune: the number of WH systems are explicitly listed on the chart and the kills are /system.

If 90% of your activity in empire space than you are an EMPIRE PLAYER and your kills belongs to empire!

Gevlon said...

@Anonymous: since I'm not in IT, that API page helps me nothing. I know the maths and have enough user level knowledge to manage data in statistical software but I can't get it from the API.

Anonymous said...

you want to do something like this then:

http://eve-kill.net/epic/mailLimit:500/mask:491520

The data comes back in this structure for the above call:

{"solarSystemName":"Sasoutikh","solarSystemSecurity":0.6,"regionName":"Devoid","ISK":5270000}

Basically key/value pairs which you can import into whatever utility you plan to use. Note only 500 kills at a time can be retrieved like this.

I can probably help author something for a modest fee... if interested let me know and I will contact you in game to save crapping up this thread.

Gevlon said...

Yes I'm interested but hard to contact "anonymous" in game. Yes, I'm ready to pay (ISK) for a useful database.

Setsune Rin said...

@gevlon if you're not willing to take the mechanics that involve living out of w-space into consideration then you will never get any valid data on it

as of right now this collection of data doesn't prove or mean anything but the facts of how much gets killed in w-space
not how much money is made there, or how rich we are. which was the point of this post if i'm not mistaken?

a null player can get his isk in null and fight there, w-space is like roaming through empty null systems
sure...you might find a ratting carrier once in every blue moon, but its much easier to just burn straight for delve and kick the TESTicles a bit

let me give you some basic numbers:
a C5 full escalation is worth 1,5-1,8 bil and can be run in about 7 minutes with 6 pilots (2 carriers, 2 dreads, 1 loki and an off-grid booster)
so you can do around 8 an hour
meaning you earn 2 bil an hour per involved pilot (8*1,5))/6


you can chain this once a day for 3 days if done right (leave the last trigger alive, come back the next day and we can escalate again)

now consider alliances etc and the fleets they run that gets worse per added pilot but not that much

Instrumental core deposits have 6000 C320 in them, mining that in ventures is the second best income you can get

aka making isk is ridiculously easy in wormholes

we live here, this our base/station/region
we're wormhole players

we just blow up our disproportionate income where the fights are


you can leave your analysis of lower class holes though, the income there isn't that great

Gevlon said...

So you make 2B in an hour running the sleepers. And how much hours do you have to run before you can run those sleepers? The towers just appeared out of the nothing? The holes are rolling themselves? The materials magic-teleport to Jita? Add these numbers and you'll see see why WH space is so empty that you have to go nullsec. I mean money draws out people who want to take it. Why is WH so damn empty instead of full of aspiring C6 dwellers?

Kobeathris said...

Gevlon,

You are attempting to determine how profitable wormholes are by looking at the wrong metric. You can't classify a Wormhole dweller's loss in Null sec as a null sec loss if you are trying to determine how profitable wormholes are. You can say "These guys just bear in wormholes, but they really live and fight in null secl/low sec/etc" but they still got their isk from the Wormholes. If you want to determine the value of wormholes, you would have to look at the loses for several big wormhole corps across all regions, and compare it to the loses of some of the big null alliances and maybe FW corps, regardless of where the losses occured. That wouldn't give you an exact metric of course, because individuals could have gotten their isk from wherever, but it should be a bit closer.

Gevlon said...

@Kobeathris: such data is not just impossible to gather but also meaningless as money has the tendency of magically appearing in the wallet of low/null/WH players: their highsec alts donate them.

What you are arguing is the self-definition of players. I've been in the supercapital carnage of 1V. Does it mean I can call myself a "supercapital hunter"? No, I'm still a highsec trader.

The numbers are telling simply that the PvP in WHs is neither more active than in null, nor it involves significantly more expensive ships. So you can live in WHs with low income and PvP involvement. I don't question that some CHOOSEs not to and roams out to null, but one can also choose to just live there and barely PvP.

However there is indeed an alternative explanation for the results which worth a post.

Anonymous said...

The materials are usually stored in the wormhole until a "heavy high" near jita opens up and then freighted out in Charons..

the hauling part of living in a wormhole does not make up for much 'time'.

We don't constantly roll the static either.. Scan a chain out once a day and if it is farming day we crit the static, leave a scout out for K162s and starting the wormhole ATM up. Constant rolling only happens when rolling for pew.

Of course the POS didn't appear out of thin air but once set up it is just a case of bringing fuel to it once every month. This isn't hard on the back of return freighter trips

Anonymous said...

such data is not just impossible to gather but also meaningless as money has the tendency of magically appearing in the wallet of low/null/WH players: their highsec alts donate them.

is there any evidence to back this up? or are you simply repeating an eve meme that everyone has highsec alts for making money?

Kobeathris said...

Look at what Setsune said again.

1) The towers are setup once, and then in a well defended C6, are very unlikely to be lost.

2) Most of the fueling of the towers can be handled by one person as long as other people in the hole do PI and drop off their stuff (10-20 minutes a day per person)

3) Sleeper loot is generally small, and can be done in batches whenever a short route to Jita is found (Requires tracking who all was involved with the farming/logistics and splitting the payout)

4) Sleepers provide "Burst ISK", you farm them for a couple of hours and then go do something else, rather than having to rat for 8 hours

All of the above requires a significant amount of trust of the people you are working with.

High class wormholes are more empty because, while a group can deal with all the problems they present, for individual players within that group, they can be a huge pain to deal with. If your real life allows you to drop whatever you are doing when there is a CTA and hop on, then they are great. If it doesn't, then you can find yourself with nothing to do but scan if things don't happen to be going down when you are on. In k-space, if nothing is going on with your corp/alliance it is much easier to find something to do.

Jim said...

Gelvon said "If 90% of your activity in empire space than you are an EMPIRE PLAYER and your kills belongs to empire!"

I don't understand why you seek to define the way I play into such a narrow field. I live in a WH. I PvE and PvP in a WH. If we have a good HS I'll shop in HS. If we have a LS or Null, I'll PvP there, assuming there is none in the WH chain we have.

I do not understand why you want to prove the nullsec players are better or more important than WH players. Or why we much be one or the other. I have no concern for sov, I cannot dock in null stations, Cynos and supers mean nothing to be. Yet, by your logic, I am a nullsec player because my KB stats break down to this;

HS: 8% of my kills, 2% of my losses.
LS: 21% of my kills, 12% of my losses.
WH: 34% of my kills, 49% of my losses
Null:37% of my kills, 37% of my losses.

I have never lived in null or LS, but, by your logic, I'm a nullsec player.

But, hey, keep telling everyone that WH players don't have a big income, I want the nerfbat to stay away.

Seriously, just nut up and join a serious WH corp. You'll have more knowledge on the subject and might even have some fun PvPing for the sake of PvPing.

Johnicholas Hines said...

Would you consider making other guides, for how to get other resources? Your "ISK guide" is useful in that almost any arbitrary goal is going to need ISK - and the other things that you need can often be obtained by trading ISK for them. But a "Tritanium guide" would be similar - almost any arbitrary guide is going to need trit and the other things you need can often be obtained by trading trit for them.

Sometimes the fastest / best way to get a resource is going to be via ISK - but sometimes doing it yourself is better.

Anonymous said...

That WHs are the safest place to be after highsec is well-known to people with substantial experience with all four zones.


As for money...it is not money that makes a region best for emergent gameplay. Highsec, lowsec, and NPC null are vastly different in many ways, but alike in having their sandbox constrained by the NPC system status.

Non-npc null and w-space are the two places where the sandbox has the most freedom. The key difference between the two is not the isk/h, but the number of people you need before you can make impact.

In null, you need a lot of people to make even the slightest dent. An impact that would be gamechanger is presently impossible because CFC and HBC are culturally similar enough to tolerate each other. Their combined power projection can dominate any other entity in null.

New players entering null emergent gameplay are either irrelevant or become tiny cogs in a machine that has already won anyway. Donating 45B to -A- would not have changed anything, they would have been USA-v-taliban-style outgunned and holed up just as they are now. Donating 45B to HBC certainly feels better, but it's just as irrelevant.

In w-space, a small organized entity can make progress on its own. There, diverse ideas and cultures still clash.

Emergent gameplay emerges from two things: complex systems interactions and people who can impact them. In NPC space, the systems are not as complex. In non-NPC null, rigidity rules over impact. W-space still has a healthy balance.

Setsune Rin said...

the skill and startup costs are what prevents most pilots from hopping into a c5/6

to make any extra cash in there you NEED a carrier, and preferably several + dreads

and lets not forget the fact that we HATE bears

if we find a tower or two from a 20 man corp in C5 space with no killboard activity the first conversation on comms usually comes down siege them yes/no

it just depends on the need for a high sec exit or the desire for pvp to decline sieging

otherwise we'd drop 2 caps + fleet in there and give them the big ol capital guns up their POS and kick their sorry ass back to C3's

we'd rather have an empty wormhole to farm for ourselves then more bears
you fight or you get evicted, simple as that


activity wise the bare minimum is the time needed to haul fuel and haul loot
neither of which is a very long investment of time, i got my month of fuel last week in about 30 minutes
and loot i just haul out to the first HS system, put it on a courier and have my jita/amarr alts sell it

which i estimate is about 1-4 hours of work per month
and the potential income in that month is a few dozen bil

Anonymous said...

I think the amount of isk that you earn is somewhat of a moot point. I earn in a wormhole enough isk that I do not need to worry about isk anymore. I always have several billion in my account and can replace anything that I lose, even the shiny stuff.

Best isk in the game? some might argue not - but who cares once you reach the threshold of being able to fly anything you want and not give shits about losing it?

Anonymous said...

I'm having trouble following the logic here:
* First two paragraphs talk about income generation, ending with a side comment about being able to afford pimped capitals.
* Jump to discussion about kill rates in various sectors of Eve.
* Conclusion: WHs aren't as profitable.

Wait, what? What do kill rates and kill costs have to do with income generation? If I generate billions in a WH and then squander those earnings roaming in nullsec, then that proves that nullsec is a more profitable place to earn income?

I'm not seeing the connection you're trying to make between your hypothesis and your data.

Gevlon said...

I am trying now to get data that solves the "WH-ers spending money elsewhere" problem.

However it's not unreasonable to assume that if you live in WH, you PvP in WH, especially since you have to protect the goldmine you are sitting on from people trying to take it.

Anonymous said...

One of your own often repeated statements is that null pvp pilots generate their money in highsec. How can you assert that but then equate where pvp happens with where isk is generated?

Jim said...

"However it's not unreasonable to assume that if you live in WH, you PvP in WH"

No, it's not unreasonable. It IS unreasonable to assume we PvP ONLY in WH space. It's one of the biggest advantages of living in WHs, the mobile aspect.

In fact, this is No Holes Barred killboard, one of the biggest WH entities. Note the variety of kill locations. http://no-ho.com/killboard/

You can suggest some BS about those kills belonging to empire if you like, but it's BS. NoHo is as WH as it gets.

Anonymous said...

People trying to take the goldmine is an interesting one in wormhole space.

For a start, anyone who really has a goldmine and is willing to defend it has built a fortress that will take a weekend to get a foothold in. This is plenty of time to bring your force back home to defend it.

Secondly the capital superiority that the home team brings to bare is enormous (refer to the Hard Knocks fight).

The combination of these 2 things makes a party willing to defend their home a very hard nut to crack.

Farming corporations (usually side operations of 0.0 organizations responsible for T3 production) wont defend, and they get stomped inside of a few days, but the entities that truly live in wormholes are very hard to kill off.

So sending expeditionary forces out to 0.0 for some kills is not that much of an imposition (personally I don't do it - I don't enjoy 0.0 PvP and live in a wormhole because I find the wormhole PvP to be more gratifying, if infrequent).

Anonymous said...

WH fights can end up without generating a huge number of kills - because of wh mechanics.

Most larger entities go out into null for pvp. See Aquila's killboard (AT winners) - and they are by no means unique.

raiden55 said...

As someone who lived on WH for months before going to sov nullsec I can tell you his conclusion is false ; even if you factor logistics and so on, you'll still make way more money than average. What is true however is that you need more time than the average guy to do this if your corp can't do it for you.
Also, for null the values are incorrect : PvP loss are paid with technium moons, and these are not on the grunt's pocket. If you count these shiny things, he would have way more money that what he really earn by himself.

Anonymous said...

I think you are looking at wrong metric. It would make more sense to look at it by totaling the value of materials that can ONLY come from wormholes that are available on the market. (more like Profit/Loss). For example, looking at blue loot and the value of T3 ships that are available on the market. Shouldn't be too hard to figure that out (if I have more time, I'd give the totals for T3 ships using Eve-Central).

Using PVP losses as a metric for how profitable a region is...is...er...

Welp, if I am understanding your methodology, I can buy a blinged out T3 ship earned from highsec carebearing, LeeRoy into Orvolle saying, "watch out, you !%&@$! Imma take you all on!", get blown up, and that counts as nullsec being "richer" than where I actually earned my money. Doesn't make sense to me.

-Amari

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